One thing I find prevalent in the poking around I've been doing is this: The pedal ratio may be too low. According to popular sources on the Web, the pedal ratio must be in between 4:1 to 5:1. Apparently some older cars, like the ones from the late 50’s, that had power brakes from the factory used a ratio of almost 1:1. Obviously that would produce a very hard pedal. But how much can I change the ratio with the existing linkage? And, what if the volume the master puts out is still low even after doing all of that. I am thinking the best way to go would be to dispense with the current rig and switch to a swing pedal.
With a swing pedal something like this, I thought I could use the master ($30) that GM used with those calipers I bought. Then I'm sure the volume is there. (I asked Scarebird and they said not to worry about using a Fast Fill/Quick Take Up master. They say it makes very little difference in the amount of pedal travel.) The Esky master is too big to fit the hole in the booster, so I need a matching '00 booster... yes I ordered one ($140) from Amazon. I won't know if I have enough room for the Esky booster until it arrives as I have no idea what diameter it is. I should be OK with up to 10". I have the swing pedal from the Coupe Devil... a '73 Cad, that might work. I thought that since the car already has a sort of swing pedal arrangement that it might be modifiable to work. But the Esky master needs 2" of travel to bottom it and mounting a pin at the spot on the existing pedal that would give me that amount of travel works out to less than a 2:1 ratio. Too stiff! Looks like I need to mount the '73 Caddy pedal which has a ratio of a bit more than 4:1.
Ugh...
BTW: I found a book online that informed me that I can tell a Fast Fill/Quick Take Up master by looking for a bulge in the casting. Sure enough, the Esky master has the bulge.
So it stands to reason a conventional master won't work well with the calipers I got for the Scarebird disc setup, even though Scarebird says it won't matter significantly. Apparently the bulge is the reason the master doesn't fit the booster for a conventional master. (Duh!) So if I can't get the Esky master/booster combo to fit or work, I'm gonna have to go to a conventional master/booster or call Master Power Brakes and find out what they have that I can use.
Another issue with an FF/QTU master is, it can apparently take a lot of time to bleed the rear brakes, due to the small refill port from reservoir to rear bore. The suggestion is to take at least thirty seconds before reapplying the brakes after each stroke, to allow time for the rear bore to refill. Not a big deal, but something to be aware of.
Double Ugh...
Friday, July 2, 2010
Thursday, June 24, 2010
Disgust
Forget everything I wrote yesterday about brake bleeding, the nice new tool, etc. Let's pretend I didn't say any of that. Cuz what I thought was a decent pedal is just the end of the pedal travel. The damned thing doesn't seem to have enough travel and it barely engages the calipers. It doesn't engage the drums at all. Nada.
This seems to be a very common thread out there in cyberspace:
This seems to be a very common thread out there in cyberspace:
I have converted my car to disc brakes and now I can't get a pedal. It goes to the floor no matter how much I bleed it.And a very common answer is this:
Check the bleeder screw orientation on the calipers. The bleeder screw must be on top in the 12:00 position. If it is not you will not be able to remove all the air from the system.Well, that's not my problem, but I did do an ignorant thing. I failed to bench-bleed the master. I thought the reverse-flow bleeder would eliminate the need! Nope. After bench-bleeding, and resetting the "tripped" prop valve, I can now get the brakes to engage slightly at the extreme end of pedal travel if I really stand on it. Progress! But I still can't figure why I don't have enough pedal travel and whether or not my master and my calipers are compatible... seems there are these "metric low drag" calipers that require a higher volume of fluid. but it seems to me that the rears should be engaging better if that is the only issue. UGH!
Wednesday, June 23, 2010
Tuesday, June 22, 2010
Brake Fluid
Brake fluid is nasty stuff. So I was quite determined to bleed brakes a different way from my previous method. The old way was a system where you pressurize this tank that' basically one of those home bug sprayer things and the hose attaches to a plate you hook onto the master. Usually you blow a lot of fluid all over the place trying to get a seal on the master and then you go around to each wheel and crack the bleeder till the bubbles stop. But then you run out of pressure or fluid in the tank before the bubbles are gone.I have a helper who could pump the pedal for me if I wanted to do it the really old fashioned way, but then you have issues there too.
Now I have a new system that you attach to the bleeder at each wheel and push fluid in reverse up to the master. Bubbles want to go from the lowest point to the highest point anyway so you are working with them instead of against them, in theory. So today I got to try it out and at first, I was taken aback... all these tubes and attachments and fittings... OMG! But it's actually quite simple once you determine which pieces you need to use for your car... and there are very few.
But before bleeding, I had several things to do. I had to replace the radiator hoses I had ripped out while installing the right brake line, and I also had to get vacuum line run to the booster and tank. I kept the old hose from the engine to the check valve but I put in a fresh check valve. I used PCV valve hose and a tee to branch off from the boost to the tank.
So then I bled the system starting with the right, as it was the longest line in the front circuit. (I can't get to the back wheels til I can pull the car out of the garage.) Right away I realized I had some loose fittings in the system I had not tightened down enough. A quick turn of the wrench and all was well again. I did the left. Nice and smooth. Went back to check the right and... the flare fitting at the hard line where it joins the flex hose was seeping. Tightened, re-bled. Still seeped. Loosened, tightened, re-bled, better but no cigar. Unscrewed the fitting completely... this had been my very first flare ever, and it may not be quite perfect. I wanted to try to save it and avoid having to grind off the flare and re-do it. Thinking perhaps a bit of grit is contributing to the issue, I cleaned it with spray brake cleaner before screwing it back together. Used a bigger wrench to tighten down and gave it a last big grunt to get it tight. Re-bled... not seeping anymore!
Somewhere along the way while I was bleeding, the UPS man delivered the new front wheels... chrome smoothies... And with fingers crossed I opened one box and gingerly tried it on for size. It scrapes the caliper! DAMN! I compare the new smoothie to the OEM Buick wheel that does not scrape and I can not see any difference with the naked eye. Backspacing looks the same, width is the same. But the smoothie scrapes and the OEM does not. I look at the calipers and I can see what's going on. The caliper curves to fit inside the wheel except at the very outer ends where it sort of kicks back out. It doesn't look to me like there is any reason those "ears" need to be there. I did a little Googling on the subject and found another case where someone had to grind something similar off to get their wheels to fit. I decided to try a little re-engineering on the left caliper to see what I could do. Presto! I didn't have to do much and now there is no scraping. I will grind the right side tomorrow and then I can take the tires and wheels over to Western to get them swapped.
I did start the engine up and tried the pedal, even though only the front circuit has been bled. It feels like there is good assist from the booster and decent pedal... the travel should be less once the backs are bled but it's not too bad now. This whole expensive mess might actually work out well!
Now I have a new system that you attach to the bleeder at each wheel and push fluid in reverse up to the master. Bubbles want to go from the lowest point to the highest point anyway so you are working with them instead of against them, in theory. So today I got to try it out and at first, I was taken aback... all these tubes and attachments and fittings... OMG! But it's actually quite simple once you determine which pieces you need to use for your car... and there are very few.
But before bleeding, I had several things to do. I had to replace the radiator hoses I had ripped out while installing the right brake line, and I also had to get vacuum line run to the booster and tank. I kept the old hose from the engine to the check valve but I put in a fresh check valve. I used PCV valve hose and a tee to branch off from the boost to the tank.
So then I bled the system starting with the right, as it was the longest line in the front circuit. (I can't get to the back wheels til I can pull the car out of the garage.) Right away I realized I had some loose fittings in the system I had not tightened down enough. A quick turn of the wrench and all was well again. I did the left. Nice and smooth. Went back to check the right and... the flare fitting at the hard line where it joins the flex hose was seeping. Tightened, re-bled. Still seeped. Loosened, tightened, re-bled, better but no cigar. Unscrewed the fitting completely... this had been my very first flare ever, and it may not be quite perfect. I wanted to try to save it and avoid having to grind off the flare and re-do it. Thinking perhaps a bit of grit is contributing to the issue, I cleaned it with spray brake cleaner before screwing it back together. Used a bigger wrench to tighten down and gave it a last big grunt to get it tight. Re-bled... not seeping anymore!
Somewhere along the way while I was bleeding, the UPS man delivered the new front wheels... chrome smoothies... And with fingers crossed I opened one box and gingerly tried it on for size. It scrapes the caliper! DAMN! I compare the new smoothie to the OEM Buick wheel that does not scrape and I can not see any difference with the naked eye. Backspacing looks the same, width is the same. But the smoothie scrapes and the OEM does not. I look at the calipers and I can see what's going on. The caliper curves to fit inside the wheel except at the very outer ends where it sort of kicks back out. It doesn't look to me like there is any reason those "ears" need to be there. I did a little Googling on the subject and found another case where someone had to grind something similar off to get their wheels to fit. I decided to try a little re-engineering on the left caliper to see what I could do. Presto! I didn't have to do much and now there is no scraping. I will grind the right side tomorrow and then I can take the tires and wheels over to Western to get them swapped.
I did start the engine up and tried the pedal, even though only the front circuit has been bled. It feels like there is good assist from the booster and decent pedal... the travel should be less once the backs are bled but it's not too bad now. This whole expensive mess might actually work out well!
Monday, June 21, 2010
Lines Are Done
I think the lines are done anyway. We'll see once they get wet. Also fabbed up a bracket to mount the reservoir onto over at the left fenderwell. I need to get the vacuum line to the booster and tank now, then finish up the back brace for the master/prop valve. I have a pair of chrome smoothies on order to see if they'll fit. If they do I get a full set. Otherwise I'll have to figure out what to try next.
Sunday, June 20, 2010
More Lines
Ugh... I got the the very last flare and the flaring tool broke! #%@&@*!
I had completed the right front line yesterday and today I got the line for the rear circuit completed with the 10 lb residual valve spliced in. I was just about done with the left front line; had it all formed and the master end flared. I just needed to flare the caliper end and then do a little tweaking. I need more clamps so I would not be able to completely check the lines off the list, but at least they'd be ready to get wet. A new flaring tool is on the way. Meanwhile I need to switch gears and work on mounting the master's reservoir and finishing off the firewall bracket/spacer. Then I have to figure out what to do about wheels...
I had completed the right front line yesterday and today I got the line for the rear circuit completed with the 10 lb residual valve spliced in. I was just about done with the left front line; had it all formed and the master end flared. I just needed to flare the caliper end and then do a little tweaking. I need more clamps so I would not be able to completely check the lines off the list, but at least they'd be ready to get wet. A new flaring tool is on the way. Meanwhile I need to switch gears and work on mounting the master's reservoir and finishing off the firewall bracket/spacer. Then I have to figure out what to do about wheels...
Lines
The right front brake line is in place... that's not to say it went smoothly though. The first time I installed it, I had it routed wrong. Seems it needed to go between the motor mount and the engine block, but I put it on the other side. D'oh! Took it back out and re-routed it properly. Of course, the nice bend up job I did got a bit twisted out of shape through all of this, but easy enough to put back to rights as I was putting in clamps and tightening things down. Removing the radiator hoses helped a lot and I never liked those hoses anyway... time for new ones. (The radiator is looking pretty ratty too... may decide to get it re-cored soon.)
The line to tie into the rear system is nearly done. I put the residual valve in the new tubing from proportioning valve to where it unions into the old 1/4" line.
The line to tie into the rear system is nearly done. I put the residual valve in the new tubing from proportioning valve to where it unions into the old 1/4" line.
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